Curse

Lord Oranos · Sep 29, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

The Current Shadow Refuge
For 4 seconds, you gain 5...9 Health Regeneration. When Shadow Refuge ends, you gain 20...68 Health if you are attacking.(Taken from Guildwiki)

...craptacular, at 11 Shadow Arts, without the bonus(that goes against what the sin is believed to be designed for) You will be healed for 18 hp for four seconds-a 72hp heal... every 8 seconds, Ether Feast is better than this crap.

Now, with the bonus(which rarely takes effect, I know when Im healing Im staying the hell away from enemies) it heals for 136 health. A nice, decent(still weak) heal.The problem is, when Im healing, I stay away, so if I want this bonus heal, I have to scramble to something before the enchant wears off.

So, In order to heal, I have to be in combat, which is negated since I will most likely take more damage then what I healed...great.

Now, the old Shadow Refuge.(Taken from Guild Wars OGaming, hasnt been updated yet, but its nice to look at the past.)

Shadow Refuge
Description: Enchantment Spell. For 4 seconds, you have a 50% chance to "evade" attacks. When Shadow Refuge ends, you are healed for 30 - 102.

Perfect, STILL half of what a warrior can heal out, but atleast its not regen that can be negated, or some conditional crap. Now, about the supposed "abuse" this skill took, last time I checked, theres more to Guild Wars than Adrenaline spikes and melee damage, it might be less damage from a caster, but damn, it could change things for the better.

Now, this heal at 12 shadow arts(Im assuming) will heal for 13 hp per second.
The current Shadow Refuge with the bonus will heal for 17 hp per second.
Without it ... 9.

Now compare this to the Warrior class, another melee, while he needs to stay in combat, he is suited well to stay in the fight with Healing Signet. At 10 Tactics will heal for 115 health every 4 seconds, 28.75 or 29 hp per second.

A smart player can just run off, heal and be right back in the fight.

I like the new damage buff and other odd little buffs, but really, I never had a problem with the offense of an Assassin, Id just like to have an unconditional heal thats half of what a Warrior can heal. We already have fragile(easily countered) combos, let us atleast have some reliable way to heal.

Feel free do discuss, debate, etc, etc.

Vermilion Okeanos · Sep 29, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Hmm... I don't understand your trouble, since I will always have a ranged weapon (wand/bow/staff/etc) in one of my weapon set (casters would have shields instead).

I just simply pull away, then shadow refuge and wand the bonus heal into my red bar.

R. Mindwalker · Sep 29, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Like Vermilion sas above, i see a lot of people doing that. Especially in GvG. The 50 % block etc is useless. If you use the refuge right it can heal you for quite a bit.
Use a bit more brain then most skills of the assy become usefull.

/disclaimer not saying your stupid or anything -.- before we get that problem..

Yanman.be · Sep 29, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Shadow Refuge right now is...ok.. BUT! It's not good enough to justify taking another skill out for this heal.

Tingi · Sep 29, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

I quite agree with Yanman. My suggestion though is this:

The only thing you need to change is the fact that you have to be attacking to get the bulk of the healing done. So, they could lower the amount that you get healed at the end BUT make it so that you don't have to be attacking to get it.

I think this is fair because shadow refuge is the ONLY assassin self heal.

audioaxes · Sep 29, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

nothing wrong with how it is. Its a pretty good way to balance of the assassin's solo ganking ability to require a bit more skill.

tuperwho · Sep 29, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I still remember being dissapointed after really liking this skill in the beta/preview, and then seeing it made mostly useless at release. I agree that it needs a buff, or I will just continue to use way of perfection (currently much more beneficial IMO).

Lord Oranos · Sep 29, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Thats true, the wand trick is nice, but it still requires you to be near an attacker, who can then promptly outdamage the meek heal. I know it sounds ridiculus, but, Im even considering using Earth Prayers for a heal instead of shadow arts, the build I tried last weekend worked like a charm and had damage, while the common sig of piety+vital boon outperformed Shadow Refuge in every way. The Dervish is meant to stay in battle though, so I guess thats required.

It kind of pisses me off that another classes healing ability outperfoms the primary class.

The 50% chance for attacks to miss is pretty nice to me, you can avoid melee attacks alittle more when you have pressure on you(bound to happen).

I also hate the fact that our only self heal can be negated by a phantasm, or something like that. Its worse than Healing Breeze... which is crappy on its own.

Ive also been wondering why they made Assassins so in terms of the chain, and on top of that we have every weakness other melees have, like the common blind, etc, etc. It just seems to be fairly narrow in view. Just my opinion though,but I know Im going to be bringing that new Signet of Removal on my sin when I get Nightfall.

Pick Me · Sep 29, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I like to think of the chain attacks akin to Fighting games. You know, HP, HP, LP, LP, Spear, HK, HK, Back+HK. Nice combos.

Anyway, Shadow Refuge is very poor indeed, but it is just 1 of 4 methods of healing. I think its there to help you remember that running away is better than standing there and getting hit. Putting a % to block on it doesn't give you that belief. As for the health boost when attacking when it ends... that is a mystery to me.

Blindness and anyother condition is removed with Signet of Malice. With so many skills causing a condition, you'll get to remove any condition quickly. Remember, touch skills are not affected by blindness.

For me (A/W) just use Critical Defenses, Jagged Strike, Wild Strike, Critical Strike/Twisted Fangs, Way of Perfection, Signet of Malice, Wild Blow, Rez Sig

You get healing, defenses, condition removal (unless the monster doesn't bleed), and constant critical hits. This of course promotes tanking (which should never be done by an Assassin).

Evilsod · Sep 29, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I don't understand why its not while not attacking... i really don't see how you can hide behind shadows (aka Shadow Refuge) when your trying to slash the enemy to ribbons.

Lord Oranos · Sep 29, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

I like to think of the chain attacks akin to Fighting games. You know, HP, HP, LP, LP, Spear, HK, HK, Back+HK. Nice combos.

Anyway, Shadow Refuge is very poor indeed, but it is just 1 of 4 methods of healing. I think its there to help you remember that running away is better than standing there and getting hit. Putting a % to block on it doesn't give you that belief. As for the health boost when attacking when it ends... that is a mystery to me.

Blindness and anyother condition is removed with Signet of Malice. With so many skills causing a condition, you'll get to remove any condition quickly. Remember, touch skills are not affected by blindness.

For me (A/W) just use Critical Defenses, Jagged Strike, Wild Strike, Critical Strike/Twisted Fangs, Way of Perfection, Signet of Malice, Wild Blow, Rez Sig

You get healing, defenses, condition removal (unless the monster doesn't bleed), and constant critical hits. This of course promotes tanking (which should never be done by an Assassin).

Yeah, Ive seen that build a couple times, Ive also watch someone Gaze it :P.
But yeah, I do like Sig of Malice now that its been buffed, I usualy cant fit it into a build with even 3 solid attacks, so I save it for Ab's

Iono, the 50% block may some try to tank, but atleast the poor bastards that try it now will have something going for them.
It would be a great restore I think, if Im trying to get away I dont have to worry as much about some ranger going for me, or melees.

Tbh, I was hoping Feigned Neutrality was going to be a more solid way of healing. Its a nice skill sure, but degen is still the easiest way to kill an Assassin.

Terra Xin · Oct 01, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

well that's weird, how come you're not using it 'while' you're pulling off your chain? It's pointless to use it when you're almost dead, it needs to be activated just before you go in, or as soon as you pass 50% health.

I can't believe you made a comparison to Healing Signet, that skill is shocking...

Lord Oranos · Oct 01, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

well that's weird, how come you're not using it 'while' you're pulling off your chain? It's pointless to use it when you're almost dead, it needs to be activated just before you go in, or as soon as you pass 50% health.

I can't believe you made a comparison to Healing Signet, that skill is shocking...

How is that shocking? I made a comparison to another melee's healing capability?

Btw I usualy put refuge on when im at 75% or below.

Ehrenia · Oct 01, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Shadow Refuge is fine as it is. It is best when used in combat before a chain or out of combat near an enemy so you can wand to get the conditional heal. You do not even have to hit to get the heal, you can begin to wand as it ends and then cancel. So ganking NPCs you don't even have to aggro to get the extra heal from attacking. The assassin can go in, kill, get out. Not go in, kill, and stay there hoping to survive. There is nothing wrong with this skill.

Ehrenia

Zui · Oct 01, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehrenia

Shadow Refuge is fine as it is. It is best when used in combat before a chain or out of combat near an enemy so you can wand to get the conditional heal. You do not even have to hit to get the heal, you can begin to wand as it ends and then cancel. So ganking NPCs you don't even have to aggro to get the extra heal from attacking. The assassin can go in, kill, get out. Not go in, kill, and stay there hoping to survive. There is nothing wrong with this skill.

Ehrenia

/QFT.

Lord Oranos · Oct 01, 2006, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehrenia

Shadow Refuge is fine as it is. It is best when used in combat before a chain or out of combat near an enemy so you can wand to get the conditional heal. You do not even have to hit to get the heal, you can begin to wand as it ends and then cancel. So ganking NPCs you don't even have to aggro to get the extra heal from attacking. The assassin can go in, kill, get out. Not go in, kill, and stay there hoping to survive. There is nothing wrong with this skill.

Ehrenia

Which promotes the Assassin staying close to an enemy, Ive already addressed that. The get in, kill, get out, is fine, but staying close to an enemy after you do so, not good, you leave yourself wide open for an ass kicking. A classes main heal is not fine when simple degen rips it a new one. Maybe the skill itself is fine, but as a primary heal, and as the only one avaiable thats the least conditional, its weak.

I can use other heals, Heart of Shadow-weak, Death's Charge-laughable, Way of Protection-rend fodder, bad recharge.

And Id like something more than a QFT, Zui, maybe you could expand in his idea.

Terra Xin · Oct 01, 2006, 10:41 AM // 10:41

well... true, you cant use shadow refuge as primary heal, but it's not like a warriors heal sig is a decent primary heal, troll unugent is regen only and takes 3 seconds to use, ether feast is target enemy. Primary heals shouldn't be designed to keep you alive, you have 7 other skills that do that job. Killing things keeps you alive, because once they're dead, they aren't killing you.

Lord Oranos · Oct 01, 2006, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

well... true, you cant use shadow refuge as primary heal, but it's not like a warriors heal sig is a decent primary heal, troll unugent is regen only and takes 3 seconds to use, ether feast is target enemy. Primary heals shouldn't be designed to keep you alive, you have 7 other skills that do that job. Killing things keeps you alive, because once they're dead, they aren't killing you.

Thats true, but usually for my Assassin and Warrior I make sure I take speed buffs, kd(warrior mostly), a snare, a res, and for my sin, something to quickly get me out of danger.

The self heals are supposed to keep you alive to an extent I think, when the damage exeeds the healing capacity you are screwed unless you kite, a warriors self heal is one of the best self heals in the game I believe(outside of a monks healing), it heals at a very good amount every 4 seconds at the cost of 40 armor, easy to counter by running off a small bit and using it.

NinjaKai · Oct 01, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

The fact is assassin is a melee profession. Shadow refuge seems more like a skill you use to keep yourself alive while doing a string of attacks before high tailing it away from the target.

Zui · Oct 01, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

You don't need to be close to the target to get the heal. As already been explained, carry a wand, staff, or bow, you know, a ranged weapon. Time your attack with said ranged weapon so you're in the process of attacking when Shadow Refuge would end. Not that hard, and you always get the bonus off it, except when everything near you is dead, in which case you probably don't need the bonus.